Curse

Seri · Aug 03, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

To quote Arthur C. Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

The way the rift and energy works in guild wars is sufficiently advanced technology which we are discovering, the word magic and physics are interchangeable.

draxynnic · Aug 03, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I think the word you're looking for is plasma. That's the best word to describe their matter. It's not exactly a liquid, nor a gas, but a weird sort of solid-liquid mixture.

Technically, a plasma is when you start with a gas and keep heating it until it ionises. Flame is an example of a plasma, as is the flash of a lightning bolt. Largely, they behave like gases (at the same temperature and pressure) except for their response to electromagnetic fields.

Under an electromagnetic theory of magic and consciousness, plasma would be a good fit for ghosts (the plasma could be contained by a set of electromagnetic fields) but I'm inclined to think GW's ghosts are made of something unknown to science...

...just like the majority of the mass of the universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Did you even read anything? Everything we see magic do is possible. Magic is just another means of achieving what alone is impossible. It's the opposite of science, just another means of doing the same things. But it is still limited to the laws of physics.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Of course, this doesn't actually say that anything that magic might allow is actually possible...

However, if magic does exist in a particular universe, it's part of the laws of physics of the universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Meh, Quantum Physics is just attempts to explain the unexplainable, which, by explaining how magic would work, I have explained it, thus it is explainable and has no true place in Quantum Physics in terms of it's existence. The part which does, however, is why it can be used, but that is left more for psychology than anything else. But meh, off-topic.

I know a lot of people who would feel quite insulted at that description. Quantum mechanics is still a fairly young branch of physics that is still not fully understood and is hard to understand at all without going through the equations, but having studied it myself and worked through the equations, it's just as valid a branch of physics as any other and more than some. Really, quantum mechanics weirdness is really only weird because at a macroscopic scale, it kinda gets averaged out and thus we don't directly experience it, but without it, speaking as an apprentice nuclear physicist who's studied how larger elements are produced in stars, we wouldn't be here.

Anyway, going back on topic here's what I've been thinking (and this is a bit stream-of-conscious-ish, so forgive me if it gets incoherent at times):

First, what is magic? When trying to mix magic with reasonably hard science, there are three possibilities I can think of for doing so:

The first is quantum mechanics. As GmrLeon says... weird. One of the weird things is that, according to QM, things that we intuitively consider impossible are, in fact, just highly improbable - for instance, it is theoretically possible for a person to spontaneously teleport ten metres. The probability is so low that you could wait until the heat-death of the universe and you probably won't ever see it happen, but it's theoretically possible - and if an entity could find a way to tweak those probabilities to make those near-impossibilities happen, then what they could do with it is almost unlimited.

The second is electromagnetism. People tend not to realise just how significant electromagnetism is, tending to associate it with, well, electricity, static, magnets, and maybe light. However, it's also the force that controls chemical reactions, and, more intuitively important to most people's everyday lives - it's electromagnetic forces that prevent solid objects from passing through one another. And unlike QM, we do have examples in the animal world of creatures that can generate electromagnetic effects - electric eels, for instance. While that's a fairly crude example, it's possible that sufficiently precise control of electromagnetic fields could result in a number of effects normally associated with magic.

The third is something that isn't known to science. This isn't the copout that it sounds - science is one of those areas where the more you know, the more you realise we don't know.

So which is it in Guild Wars? Well, one well-known item of Guild Wars lore is that magic can be regulated, through the medium of the Bloodstones. This wouldn't work under the QM or the EM theory - once a wielder knew how to perform some feat, they wouldn't need to remain attuned to some stone to be able to continue performing that feat. So magic, in GW, is something outside our science. (This does not mean it can't be scientifically analysed, and I'm willing to bet that the Asura are doing just that.)

The next thing to consider is... how is magic organised?

Well, what we know is that it's divided 4 ways, among the various Bloodstones. Some might consider there to be a 5th way, through the keystone, but while I am a proponent of that theory myself, for now I will consider just the four canon divisions.

Comparing to other fantasy games, the branches of magic are similar to a modified Magic: the Gathering array. We don't have nature magic (at least, it isn't tied to a bloodstone...) but we have life magic (white), necromancy (black), elemental magic (red), and mental magic (blue).

Now, considering this, I'm going to try to explain the three 'unknown' damage types: Chaos, Dark, and Holy. Looking through the professions, it can be observed that no single profession uses more than one of these types: Mesmers and Elementalists use Chaos damage, Necromancers and Ritualists use Dark damage, and Monks, Dervishes, and Paragons can inflict Holy damage, but none use more than one. Going back to the four Bloodstones, that gives us the following associations:

Life: Holy
Death: Dark
Elemental, Mental: Chaos

So, let's consider the associations these types of magic have:

First, life mages are pretty much always spiritual in nature. Often, they are priests of some deity or another, but even when they aren't, they usually believe they're responsible to something - a philosophy, the good of their fellow sapient, something. In Guild Wars, this fits for human examples of each profession that uses Holy damage in some form - each of the three has some religious overtone.

Elemental and mental magic practitioners, on the other hand, tend to go the other way - they tend to be cerebral types that gain their abilities through study rather than spiritualism. Again, this fits in with the behaviour of NPC elementalists and mesmers - they tend to spend their time engaging in magical research and studying strange creatures, sometimes to the extreme of performing dangerous experiments and creating strange (and dangerous) creatures. So the magic types that employ chaos damage have something in common.

Finally, you have the death magic practitioners, which may be cerebral or spiritual, but have a clear source of power that's seperate to the others - the dead. Pretty simple, really.

So, we have three different damage types, each associated with types of magic that is acquired in different ways - holy through spiritual means, chaos damage-associated magics through study, and dark damage draws on the dead. Could this be a hint that before the Bloodstones were seperated, magically naturally came in three flavours rather than four? If so, this would mean the identity of the three damage types is actually fairly simple - they're simply a packet of the magic in question that is flung at the target in its pure form instead of being converted into an element beforehand.

One fly in the proverbial ointment is that there are plenty of creatures that wield a certain magic type that don't have the associated quality - it's hard to imagine a Rider or Drake reading books, after all. However, it's possible that they have something better - an instinctive understanding of how to use the magic type they use (or at least those specific skills that they use). Alternatively, the associated personality traits might be more of an effect than a cause - you don't need to be spiritual to wield life magic or cerebral to wield chaos-related magic, but doing so encourages those traits in the practitioner... if the practitioner is capable of developing those traits.

So, now that we've identified three primal flavours, what is the nature of each?

Life magic I tend to think of as being something like, ironically enough (since I was thinking of this before Thalador posted) the Force - an energy field that connects all living things. As a result, a practitioner of life magic cannot tap into this power source without the feeling that they are a part of something larger than themselves. Different practitioners may interpret this in different ways - a human might view it as their patron deity, an Asura might consider it the to be the Eternal Alchemy, and a post-revolution Charr might see it as the greater superiority of the Charr race - but each knows they are part of something greater.

Death magic, on the other hand, is the energy of the spirits of the dead - essentially the flipside of the coin of Life magic. This is my alternate suggestion of what spirits are formed from - essentially condensed forms of death magic.

Chaos is then a bit of a mystery, but the most logical possibility is that it's the energy of the Mists that isn't linked to a living or dead creature.

Finally, considering the idea that souls are born out of the Mists and, eventually, dissolve back into the Mists some time after their death, this suggests that these three flavours of magic may in fact be in a constant cycle. The souls of new living creatures are born from the chaotic energies of the Mists, linking that energy into the web of life and converting it into "holy" energy. When the creature dies, some of that energy is converted into Dark energy to form its spirit in the afterlife (Necromancers may also influence this process, claiming some energy from a departing spirit or even forcing this process to occur prematurely in living subjects to convert life force into energy). Finally, when a spirit experiences final oblivion and dissolves into the Mists, their spiritual energy reverts to a chaotic state, possibly to repeat the cycle.

To the question of why the Bloodstones aren't simply split along flavour lines - it's possible that the typical equilibrium state has twice as much magic in the chaos form than the other two. To achieve equity between magic types, then, the gods created one bloodstone each for Holy and Dark magic, but split the bloodstone for Chaos magic to modulate it into two seperate forms - one that is more useful for manipulating the physical environment (elemental magic), and one that is more useful for manipulating other kinds of magic, including that found in the spirits and bodies of others (mesmer magic).

Alternatively, it may be that instead of this distinction being externally imposed, elemental and mesmer magic represent different stages in the evolution of chaos magic - one might be magic that has relatively recently been released from a dissolving spirit, while the other might be magic that is almost ready to give birth to a new living soul and restart the cycle. While arguments could be made either way, I would be inclined to think, due to the parallels between the magic types, that Mesmer magic would be the form that has relatively recently dissolved from a sentient spirit (possibly still carrying traces of that sentience, explaining its affinity for manipulating the mind) while elemental magic is the form that has been cleansed of traces of any former lives and is ready to create anew.

So, in the end, the cycle goes as following:

Code:

         (Chaos)
Elementalist <- Mesmer
|               ^
v               |
Monk -> Necromancer
(Holy)           (Dark)

Other professions then employ specialised parts of each magic type. Ritualists sit in the same zone as Necromancers, but while Necromancers lean closer to the chaos side of the boundary, Ritualists sit closer to the Monk side. Dervishes and Paragons wield Holy damage effects but also have a mix of Elementalist-style effects (especially the Dervish), so they may draw more from younger, more chaotic sections of the holy magic area than the Monks. Finally, Assassins operate close to the boundary between Dark and Chaos.

Gmr Leon · Aug 03, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Magic may not be natural to tyria, but it is natural to the universe. Everything in magic we see does not defy rules of physics, just adds onto it and appears to defy this. Why the Ancient Dragons have a large amount of magical ability goes to my second theory.

Although, one could easily say that humans are narrow-minded on Tyria, as they still think Tyria was the first world ever created. It could just as easily be that somehow they introduced magic across all of the Mists, in the form of giving others the ability to actually tap into and manipulate it, something which would appear to have been restricted to the Gods prior to this. Another way of looking at it may simply be a sudden evolutionary jump in everything, but only in their brains, going by your outlook on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If one absorbs magic, they can only hold a certain amount, after which they will either be forced to emit magic or they will be destroyed. This would be the case for energy as a whole. It is naturally impossible for an object to hold more energy than it can withstand. This is where the idea of exploding heads from (usually radiation) waves comes from. One way of thinking, is that magic is a force that can make radiation, and not "is like radiation." If you understand what I mean.

The main point: Radiation is a thing. Magic is an action of controlling things. Think of it as "an extension of the body."

Despite having a decent amount of knowledge regarding physics, I still don't think that's completely true. That an object or entity can only contain a certain amount of energy, emitting it in a certain form, or they will be destroyed. I think it depends entirely on the way the energy is injected or utilized with the entity or within the entity. For instance, in the case of teleportation, it requires a huge amount of energy to split a person into each individual atom, and then reassemble them on the other side properly.

The energy involved is merely manipulated to interact with the body in a different manner. Although, there's another, quantum idea, I think it is, that's much cooler, but takes just as much effort. That's off-topic though.

Also, about the radiation thing that, at least in my opinion, you're doing a not-so-great job of explaining..I think you mean magic is like a stream of electrons. That is to say, like an electron, it acts both as a particle (solid magical attack, i.e. meteorites, ice, etc.), and a wave (radiating magic, etc.), which acts as both a particle at times, and as a wave at others, the wave being the radiation if I'm not mistaken. In short, as one manipulates the Mists, it would be more or less manipulating the particles to act in a certain manner, particles in one, waves in others. I would say that when one manipulates it in the wave form, is when one utilizes the Mesmer's form of magic, such as stealing information and magical energy itself.

However, the key problem here, is that the particles they're manipulating are not just the Mists, as far as we know. They interact with matter and air, which, I suppose, we must assume has the same composition as our universe's matter and air. That is to say, electron, proton, neutron, etc.

So, the question then becomes, is the Mists an energy source, a gigantic array of unconscious understanding of the physical properties of the universe that one uplinks to to enact their "magic" or, is it both all at once?

Yeah..Extension of the mind would have been much better, as while the mind is, at least theoretically if I'm not mistaken, a byproduct of neural processes in the brain, it's literally an alternate entity in Tyria. Tyria, unlike our world as far as we know, is dualistic. Mind and body are separate. Well, soul and body, I guess would be the proper terminology. Soul remains synonymous to mind, in my opinion, but that's beside the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

In a way, magic is infinite, but only because magic is not a "thing" but an "action." The "source" of magic may come from the Mists, but the Mists cannot give energy, which would include magic, or create something without spending energy. In order to spend energy, it must gain energy, thus my theory that spirits, once "destroyed" gives the Mists this energy comes into play.

Probably just the way it's written, but the way you have to spend energy, it must gain energy, just clicks in my head as, as soon as energy is spent, it must immediately gain energy. Which I know is probably not what you're saying. [Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say the Mists cannot give energy. By the very act of creation of living organisms, it is in part providing energy for their life. The downside being that it doesn't continually provide energy in the sense of life support.] And those last three sentences might as well be junk, as I was only reading a part and not the whole of that sentence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The earliest mention I know of magic in relation to physics is by Quintus (which was that magic defies physics). But do note, I said "Most that give their opinion" - this is merely an observation, and I have never once seen someone say magic is just an extension of the laws of physics.

I could have sworn he once suggested the same thing you're suggesting now, though..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Changing the density of an object would also work, and would probably be the "easier method" of doing such. However, doing that is also the harder to accomplish method, as if things levitate, they don't seem to lose their weight, thus it is just potential energy which is changed, not density.

As for where energy comes from, it depends on the source.

...And that last part still remains the problem. Also, you would mean "as if things levitate, they don't seem to lose their mass" as a change in density would either be a Δm or ΔV. We can at least observe the volume, and while we can't be certain, it doesn't appear to have been altered. So, it would seem that the mass must have been altered in some way to decrease the overall density.

Remember, weight is just the exertion of gravity on mass.

And since the gravitational field in the area doesn't appear to be altered, (we're not constantly floating around, for instance, as I imagine it would need to be dramatically altered for the stones to float) it must be what I noted above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It would, in essence, be either or, or both. Depends on the job at hand.

As I thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Just because that is how it is done, doesn't mean the person knows they are doing such a thing. In most instances, if people think of how they want their magic done, they just think "a ball of fire" or "heal this wound" - they don't think "change the air atoms to carbon and other atoms in the human body and connect them to the skin and blood vessels and muscles of this body." I was explaining how it is done in physical sense, not a mental sense. Going any further would go into my next theory, more or less, though.

Which is now making me wonder if my "gigantic array of unconscious understanding" is close to touching on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Kind of like above, even by use, one may not understand what is actually happening. You need to ask "how much do they know of molecules, atoms, bacteria" - my guess, very little.

Actually, they might know quite a bit about bacteria, as Necromancers tend to utilize it quite a bit. And, well, they study the dead, they probably have a far more intimate understanding of decaying flesh and the bacteria involved than one would expect. Molecules and atoms, though, yeah, probably not so much. I don't think they have the instruments to study either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

though for GW with the exclusion of telepathy's magical equivilant - you get levitation and movement.

Er..What? Telepathy is communication between minds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Nothing is infinite. Nothing is unlimited.

I beg to differ, but it's more my opinion, and perspective, than anything legitimate. Not covering the rest of that post due to its irrelevance to the actual subject matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Technically, a plasma is when you start with a gas and keep heating it until it ionises. Flame is an example of a plasma, as is the flash of a lightning bolt. Largely, they behave like gases (at the same temperature and pressure) except for their response to electromagnetic fields.

Believe it or not, I was actually thinking that as I typed my point on plasma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

I know a lot of people who would feel quite insulted at that description. Quantum mechanics is still a fairly young branch of physics that is still not fully understood and is hard to understand at all without going through the equations, but having studied it myself and worked through the equations, it's just as valid a branch of physics as any other and more than some. Really, quantum mechanics weirdness is really only weird because at a macroscopic scale, it kinda gets averaged out and thus we don't directly experience it, but without it, speaking as an apprentice nuclear physicist who's studied how larger elements are produced in stars, we wouldn't be here.

Have to agree here. I didn't even study to be a nuclear physicist or a physicist, but I still grasp enough of the material, and usually rather easily at that, to understand its place in our universe. Although, one still has to love this quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Feynman

I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.

I'm going to stop here, though. I think if I tried to go further, I might go over the character limit..And aside from that, I don't see anything incredibly absurd in Draxynnic's post that I want to argue at the moment. (In other words, just taking a break for now.)

Seri · Aug 03, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Heat is constant, transferring from one object to another, one molecule to another. If cold molecules touch hot molecules, the heat transfers over. This is why a seat is warm after you sit in it for a long time.

0o I woke up, Konig your arguement is flawed at this point. Heat is not a constant, (A constant function is one that does not depend on the independent variable) Heat is completely dependent on the amount of energy put in and the efficiency of what you are using. The total amount of energy in the system is a constant. Furthermore, heat is simply kinetic energy it is simple molecular vibration and movement.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 04, 2009, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Technically, a plasma is when you start with a gas and keep heating it until it ionises. Flame is an example of a plasma, as is the flash of a lightning bolt. Largely, they behave like gases (at the same temperature and pressure) except for their response to electromagnetic fields.

Under an electromagnetic theory of magic and consciousness, plasma would be a good fit for ghosts (the plasma could be contained by a set of electromagnetic fields) but I'm inclined to think GW's ghosts are made of something unknown to science...

...just like the majority of the mass of the universe.

That is actually why I said a "non-solid solid" or "liquid solid." At first, plasma didn't really cross my mind, but when Leon first said it I immediately thought of how video games, such as doom or quake, show their "plasma gun" which is a lot like a liquid and then I thought ectoplasm(a) so my train of thought fooled me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Elemental and mental magic practitioners, on the other hand, tend to go the other way - they tend to be cerebral types that gain their abilities through study rather than spiritualism. Again, this fits in with the behaviour of NPC elementalists and mesmers - they tend to spend their time engaging in magical research and studying strange creatures, sometimes to the extreme of performing dangerous experiments and creating strange (and dangerous) creatures. So the magic types that employ chaos damage have something in common.

NPC behavior and traits differ on the continents they reside. Elementalists in Cantha learn purely through fighting and scoff at those who learn through studying - while Tyrian is learning through studying and experimenting, and Elonians are more of "peace lovers." The personality difference is the same for all continents - though, of course, there are some exceptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Life magic I tend to think of as being something like an energy field that connects all living things. As a result, a practitioner of life magic cannot tap into this power source without the feeling that they are a part of something larger than themselves. Different practitioners may interpret this in different ways - a human might view it as their patron deity, an Asura might consider it the to be the Eternal Alchemy, and a post-revolution Charr might see it as the greater superiority of the Charr race - but each knows they are part of something greater.

The only creatures I've seen this be the case for - that is, them showing they know they are a small part of something large - would be the Druids, perhaps the Avatar of Dwayna, and the Asura through the Eternal Alchemy as you pointed out. So, while possible, I find it skeptical myself.

Another thing regarding "Life/Holy" magic, there is an issue here I see: Holy magic damages, while "life" magic heals. They are two different things. And everything which links itself to "life magic" as being "a part of the large" would be linked not to Holy - and thus Balthazar - but to healing, and thus Dwayna.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

To the question of why the Bloodstones aren't simply split along flavour lines - it's possible that the typical equilibrium state has twice as much magic in the chaos form than the other two. To achieve equity between magic types, then, the gods created one bloodstone each for Holy and Dark magic, but split the bloodstone for Chaos magic to modulate it into two seperate forms - one that is more useful for manipulating the physical environment (elemental magic), and one that is more useful for manipulating other kinds of magic, including that found in the spirits and bodies of others (mesmer magic).

I personally tend to think that there are really two "categories" of magic; schools, and (as you put it) "flavors" of magic. Meaning that Destruction, Preservation, Denial, and Aggression would not be linked to Holy, Dark, and Chaos. As stated above, healing (thus Preservation) and holy do not go together. If they would be linked, Holy would go into Destruction. Chaos can be viewed as going into Denial, and Destruction, and Dark as Aggression, and perhaps again Destruction. The three "flavors" all are damage based, with Dark and Chaos also going into their believed profession specific schools. But that connection to the other schools could just be due to the Professions.

Unfortunately, my mind isn't functioning that well at the moment, so I am unsure how to word my own theory. Meh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Probably just the way it's written, but the way you have to spend energy, it must gain energy, just clicks in my head as, as soon as energy is spent, it must immediately gain energy. Which I know is probably not what you're saying. [Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say the Mists cannot give energy. By the very act of creation of living organisms, it is in part providing energy for their life. The downside being that it doesn't continually provide energy in the sense of life support.] And those last three sentences might as well be junk, as I was only reading a part and not the whole of that sentence.

What I meant by "cannot give energy" I meant cannot produce energy out of nothing. And I wouldn't say it must immediately gain energy, but before it can spend any more energy, it would require to gain energy. Just like if you were to go for a run until your exhausted, you need to regain energy in order to do certain things. Most energy, for the human body, comes from sunlight and food.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I could have sworn he once suggested the same thing you're suggesting now, though..

Not that I've ever seen, which would mean most large threads on GWO. Only mention of physics I've seen Quintus mention is what I've said: Physics exist except in the case of magic. Which, like many things he's said, seems to have been widespread - even if they never read him type that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

...And that last part still remains the problem. Also, you would mean "as if things levitate, they don't seem to lose their mass" as a change in density would either be a Δm or ΔV. We can at least observe the volume, and while we can't be certain, it doesn't appear to have been altered. So, it would seem that the mass must have been altered in some way to decrease the overall density.

Remember, weight is just the exertion of gravity on mass.

And since the gravitational field in the area doesn't appear to be altered, (we're not constantly floating around, for instance, as I imagine it would need to be dramatically altered for the stones to float) it must be what I noted above.

Actually, if it were your case, it would be mass. But I meant in my case: if things are levitated, then they are just as heavy as if they were on the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..What? Telepathy is communication between minds.

Exclusion of Telepathy's magic equivalent. Telepathy is a psi ability term, "telepathy's magical equivalent" would mean whatever term is used for magical communication between minds (I've seen many). So for GW's "magic" it would be simply limited to levitation or telekinesis. There is no "mind to mind communication" shown in GW. This is what I meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seri

Konig your arguement is flawed at this point. Heat is not a constant, (A constant function is one that does not depend on the independent variable) Heat is completely dependent on the amount of energy put in and the efficiency of what you are using. The total amount of energy in the system is a constant. Furthermore, heat is simply kinetic energy it is simple molecular vibration and movement.

Eh, it was 5 am when I wrote this theory, so I'm sure there are many more wording issues. And it's not so much of a flaw, as it is a typo. As that is just the background and was only to help explain the transference of energy - even in the form of heat. Which would lead to the background behind fire and cold magical damage.

draxynnic · Aug 04, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That is actually why I said a "non-solid solid" or "liquid solid." At first, plasma didn't really cross my mind, but when Leon first said it I immediately thought of how video games, such as doom or quake, show their "plasma gun" which is a lot like a liquid and then I thought ectoplasm(a) so my train of thought fooled me.

Eheheheh. Yerssss, the Doom/Quake plasma weapons with little round plasma globs that travel slower than bullets...

Now, a real plasma weapon would probably put you even more in mind of a liquid - think of a very dangerous water pistol powered by electromagnetic fields rather than air pressure where each 'squirt' travels at a significant fraction of the speed of light and you probably won't be far off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig

NPC behavior and traits differ on the continents they reside. Elementalists in Cantha learn purely through fighting and scoff at those who learn through studying - while Tyrian is learning through studying and experimenting, and Elonians are more of "peace lovers." The personality difference is the same for all continents - though, of course, there are some exceptions.

Point - although in the case of Tyria and Cantha, these are essentially different kinds of learning by experimentation...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig

The only creatures I've seen this be the case for - that is, them showing they know they are a small part of something large - would be the Druids, perhaps the Avatar of Dwayna, and the Asura through the Eternal Alchemy as you pointed out. So, while possible, I find it skeptical myself.

Another thing regarding "Life/Holy" magic, there is an issue here I see: Holy magic damages, while "life" magic heals. They are two different things. And everything which links itself to "life magic" as being "a part of the large" would be linked not to Holy - and thus Balthazar - but to healing, and thus Dwayna.

Perhaps 'part of something larger' isn't the right term, but they're certainly connecting to something larger while using that form of magic. As I said, different races will likely view it differently according to their beliefs, whether that's the Dream, or the god that the practitioner worships (most likely Dwayna or Balthazar, but the monk profession isn't exclusive to their worship - Kehanni, for instance, was a monk priestess of Lyssa, so presumably she interpreted the effect as being Lyssa's presence).

By contrast, and this is something I meant to put in the previous post but forgot: Practitioners of death magic interact with individual spirits and the energy they grant rather than a continuum - which can be a religious experience (it's direct interaction with Grenth's domain, after all) but could also be viewed simply as a matter of bargaining with or coercing spirits to do your bidding (Ritualists) or grant you power (Necromancers) - the individual spirits don't give the sense of being from a source superior to the practitioner that holy magic does. Chaos magic, on the other hand, is simply a tool, encouraging those who use it to experiment to find new methods of doing so/

Quote:

I personally tend to think that there are really two "categories" of magic; schools, and (as you put it) "flavors" of magic. Meaning that Destruction, Preservation, Denial, and Aggression would not be linked to Holy, Dark, and Chaos. As stated above, healing (thus Preservation) and holy do not go together. If they would be linked, Holy would go into Destruction. Chaos can be viewed as going into Denial, and Destruction, and Dark as Aggression, and perhaps again Destruction. The three "flavors" all are damage based, with Dark and Chaos also going into their believed profession specific schools. But that connection to the other schools could just be due to the Professions.

This is something else I was meaning to mention but forgot.

If you consider modern medicine, there are a lot of things that are beneficial if applied correctly, but may be harmful if, well, not applied correctly. Holy magic works the same way - when refined through a spell or skill, it can be employed to heal or prevent harm... or if smiting is your preference, it could instead be concentrated into a form that causes maximum harm to the target. In its natural, raw form, however, it's just as harmful as any other type (and more so to undead).

While I'm here, there are a couple of things Konig asked in whispers that I should probably put here for completeness:

Q: Where do Elementalists use chaos damage?
A: Energy Storage staves and wands, and possibly Energy Blast (although that isn't confirmed).

Q: What about Necromancers using both Dark and Shadow damage types?
A: I see them as being the same thing with different names (like Light and Holy used to be. (Expanded from original response) If you really want a distinction, Shadow damage may be the refined form of Dark damage as produced by a skill instead of just flinging a glob of the stuff at the target

Konig Des Todes · Aug 04, 2009, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Perhaps 'part of something larger' isn't the right term, but they're certainly connecting to something larger while using that form of magic. As I said, different races will likely view it differently according to their beliefs, whether that's the Dream, or the god that the practitioner worships (most likely Dwayna or Balthazar, but the monk profession isn't exclusive to their worship - Kehanni, for instance, was a monk priestess of Lyssa, so presumably she interpreted the effect as being Lyssa's presence).

First of all, Kehanni is a mesmer (according to the wiki - no skills seem to be shown, only proof there would be would be weapons seen used by her, but that's still iffy - point is, no proof of her being a monk). Second of all, couldn't that "connecting to something larger" be considered the Mists? Or am I just misunderstanding what you mean, simply due to the fact that well, makes no logical sense to me (me and illogical ideas don't mix).

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

If you consider modern medicine, there are a lot of things that are beneficial if applied correctly, but may be harmful if, well, not applied correctly. Holy magic works the same way - when refined through a spell or skill, it can be employed to heal or prevent harm... or if smiting is your preference, it could instead be concentrated into a form that causes maximum harm to the target. In its natural, raw form, however, it's just as harmful as any other type (and more so to undead).

I suppose that does make some sense. But I still am unsure whether the three "flavors" of magic are connected to the schools of magic.

draxynnic · Aug 04, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

First of all, Kehanni is a mesmer (according to the wiki - no skills seem to be shown, only proof there would be would be weapons seen used by her, but that's still iffy - point is, no proof of her being a monk).

Tahlkora, then:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tahlkora

Uhm, hello. What's that? Yes, I'm from Vabbi. No, I'm no one important; just a simple priestess of Lyssa. I know how to heal wounds and protect you from danger. But I don't plan to stay in the temple. I'm going to be an adventurer! You'll see.

Quote:

Second of all, couldn't that "connecting to something larger" be considered the Mists?

It could be, just that part of the Mists most directly connected to living things.

The main thrust of my argument is that holy damage and associated professions, as the name implies, always seems to be tied up with religion in intelligent creatures, therefor there's something about it that encourages spirituality in the user - and the simplest is that it when used it gives the feeling to the user that they are touching (insert whatever substitutes for divinity in the user's belief system here). An entity who worships the Mists would probably see it as the Mists, and they may in fact be closer to the truth than most.

Gmr Leon · Aug 04, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What I meant by "cannot give energy" I meant cannot produce energy out of nothing. And I wouldn't say it must immediately gain energy, but before it can spend any more energy, it would require to gain energy. Just like if you were to go for a run until your exhausted, you need to regain energy in order to do certain things. Most energy, for the human body, comes from sunlight and food.

Yes, yes, I realized that after I had already typed that response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Actually, if it were your case, it would be mass. But I meant in my case: if things are levitated, then they are just as heavy as if they were on the ground.

You do realize that, for the stones, Wizard's Tower, and the structures in Vabbi, there's no real support for that, right? Just as there's no complete support that the mass is altered in my pondering. Until we have the instruments to measure either of these, we can't be certain in either way. And even then, we would need an exact duplicate that hasn't been altered to make comparisons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Exclusion of Telepathy's magic equivalent. Telepathy is a psi ability term, "telepathy's magical equivalent" would mean whatever term is used for magical communication between minds (I've seen many). So for GW's "magic" it would be simply limited to levitation or telekinesis. There is no "mind to mind communication" shown in GW. This is what I meant.

..And I'm sure in certain fantasy-worlds, they use exactly the same terminology. Either way, if one were to move their body in the form of levitation, be it for a moment or an extended length of time without any apparatus to assist them, this would remain under the term telekinesis, as it is the ability to move objects with one's mind, and the body is not exempt from this. Also, you're actually wrong about mind to mind communication in GW. Even in the present GW, it is a displayed ability of the Mursaat, albeit simply to extract information.

And, of course, the Dream of Dreams in GW2 would appear to be telepathy as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

It could be, just that part of the Mists most directly connected to living things.

The main thrust of my argument is that holy damage and associated professions, as the name implies, always seems to be tied up with religion in intelligent creatures, therefor there's something about it that encourages spirituality in the user - and the simplest is that it when used it gives the feeling to the user that they are touching (insert whatever substitutes for divinity in the user's belief system here). An entity who worships the Mists would probably see it as the Mists, and they may in fact be closer to the truth than most.

Ironically enough, I think you just went through Kerrsh's examination of the deities of Tyria. Similar in a way as to how I examined them, using Kerrsh's examinations as well, and came to the conclusion that the Gods as the humans see them, are just containers for aspects of the Mists that relate to their domain.

draxynnic · Aug 05, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Ironically enough, I think you just went through Kerrsh's examination of the deities of Tyria. Similar in a way as to how I examined them, using Kerrsh's examinations as well, and came to the conclusion that the Gods as the humans see them, are just containers for aspects of the Mists that relate to their domain.

Except that they have personalities, as demonstrated by at least one example of one personality supplanting another (Kormir and Abaddon, to be precise). My personal theory is that the original gods were basically extremely powerful demons - formed out of the Mists with more power than most and the ability to choose to be benign instead of malign. (Of course, we don't know that demons have to be evil in GW, just that the ones we encounter (and fight) usually are. Razah is one counterexample on a smaller scale, and such counterexamples may actually outnumber the malicious - just that the majority of them tend not to concern themselves with the affairs of mortals.)

One area where I think Kerrsh was going astray is that he accepted the omnipotence of the gods as fact, and was then trying to work out the paradox of how one omnipotent being could be stronger than another omnipotent being in one zone of responsibility... a paradox that is easier to work out by simply realising that the gods aren't omnipotent. We kill one, for Kormir's sake!

(By the same evidence, we also know that the gods are real on some level, rather than some metaphor. This does not necessarily mean that everything that is attributed to them is actually their work, however.)

Gmr Leon · Aug 05, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Except that they have personalities, as demonstrated by at least one example of one personality supplanting another (Kormir and Abaddon, to be precise).

Which would be permitted by the container, the container being the entity (human, demon, yak, whatever) that usurped the power of the previous God or Goddess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

One area where I think Kerrsh was going astray is that he accepted the omnipotence of the gods as fact, and was then trying to work out the paradox of how one omnipotent being could be stronger than another omnipotent being in one zone of responsibility... a paradox that is easier to work out by simply realising that the gods aren't omnipotent. We kill one, for Kormir's sake!

I don't think he completely accepted as fact, more like acknowledging the data before him that suggested that, and trying to figure out how that could possibly work. Kind of like you don't have to take a deity in reality as actually existing to examine and doubt its properties. Also, I wouldn't say they aren't omnipotent, as I would just say they all have a similar amount of power, but are more along the lines of omnipotent within their domain. Er..Basically, it would just be that each God or Goddess is more skilled within their domain. Although I realize that still wouldn't be omnipotent according to the real definition, and that Abaddon seems to undermine it as he was apparently able to fend off two Gods, but, eh, there's just not a good way to put it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

(By the same evidence, we also know that the gods are real on some level, rather than some metaphor. This does not necessarily mean that everything that is attributed to them is actually their work, however.)

I'm still not sure how real they are anymore. As in, with the Exodus, did they somehow transcend their bodies and become one with the Mists, while maintaining their sentience and sapience? And now, rather than appearing themselves before mortals, they utilize their Avatars as not only messengers but as enforcers of their will into the world. As in the case of requesting help in the Underworld and Fissure of Woe, and then enacting their will via whisking us away to their realm. Which could act as an explanation for "Balthazar's" sudden and brief appearance in Lion's Arch to open a gateway to the Hall of Heroes.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 05, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

You do realize that, for the stones, Wizard's Tower, and the structures in Vabbi, there's no real support for that, right? Just as there's no complete support that the mass is altered in my pondering. Until we have the instruments to measure either of these, we can't be certain in either way. And even then, we would need an exact duplicate that hasn't been altered to make comparisons.

When thinking of my own examples, I wasn't considering Wizard's Tower, but just the Tarnished Coast rocks, and the Vabbian structures. The Vabbian structures are maintained, implying a plausible constant use from others to make sure they stay up. The Tarnished Coast may or may not have been affect by the Cataclysm - such a huge blast would be able to keep rocks levitating with potential energy for a long time.

But like I thought I once said on this topic: It could be either or, depends on the circumstance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

..And I'm sure in certain fantasy-worlds, they use exactly the same terminology.

Of what I recall, only the more recent fantasy stories/games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Also, you're actually wrong about mind to mind communication in GW. Even in the present GW, it is a displayed ability of the Mursaat, albeit simply to extract information.

And, of course, the Dream of Dreams in GW2 would appear to be telepathy as well.

The Dream of Dreams crossed my mind, but I took that more as an evolutionary trait, and thus was going to bring it up in my next theory - seeing how the Sylvari cannot seemingly communicate to other races this way. As for the Inquisitor, merely forgot about this. Which gives us two races with some form of telekinesis. Thus, once more, supporting it being an evolutionary trait and not common magic.

Gmr Leon · Aug 05, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Telepathy, you mean. Telekinesis is the movement of objects with the mind.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 05, 2009, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Meeeeeehhhhhhh, I've been making constant typos as of late...

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 06, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

I found Glint's lair quite a remarkable feat. It is a pocket dimension. I don't know the physics behind it (if something like that even exists, or there are theories about it in the reality), but creating a pocket dimension and keeping up the illusion that it's a grain of sand for more than 3000 years would require incredible amount of energy/magic. I can't speculate and prove anything with this, although it would seem that the magic keeping the illusion intact is 'infinite'. Or there's some kind of generator(?) which provides the power. However, the generator too would be flat by now.
Any thoughts?

Gmr Leon · Aug 06, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

From the small amount of reading I've done in regards to Quantum Physics and String Theory, one of the ideas about dimensions is that, and I think this is the String Theory idea, that they're nothing like that seen in fiction, they just sort of curl up or something like that. In other words, the extra dimensions would be extremely minuscule, easily ignored, much like atoms or molecules in the air. Then again, there's the other idea that the fourth dimension is in fact time..And that the rest of the gravitational force "leaks" into the other dimensions, which is why it appears so weak in our three (or four) dimensions.

And technically, Glint's Lair isn't an illusion. As far as we know, it's literally a pocket dimension in a grain of sand somewhere. Not to mention, an Asura gate appears to lead into it, suggesting that it is on Tyria, somewhere. We haven't heard of any Asuran gates leading to other dimensions yet, so..

Konig Des Todes · Aug 07, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Glint's little pocket dimension is a good question, and not one I have an answer to. Being a bit pathetic in science (well, not so much as pathetic as not caring past what I needed to know to pass), I wouldn't know much.

Should probably read up on Quantum Physics and its theories.

draxynnic · Aug 07, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And technically, Glint's Lair isn't an illusion. As far as we know, it's literally a pocket dimension in a grain of sand somewhere. Not to mention, an Asura gate appears to lead into it, suggesting that it is on Tyria, somewhere. We haven't heard of any Asuran gates leading to other dimensions yet, so..

Well, I'm not convinced that the baby dragon we defend actually was in Glint's lair (one might expect Glint, her aspects, and/or her other defenders to have shown up it it was). There are similarities, but it's possible Glint made pocket dimensions for her children to hide in so they'd survive if she gets killed.

(EDIT Checking with Consular Oakencast, I think this is in fact pretty much exactly what's going on. Brand says the child is in a crystalline fortress hidden in a grain of sand in the Crystal Desert, but doesn't say that it's the same as Glint's - just that Glint herself is also threatened... possibly (in fact, most likely) elsewhere.)

As for making pocket dimensions... a more accurate physical term would be 'pocket universes', but it's theoretically possible. It does require a LOT of energy, however. (Technically it requires a lot of negative energy, but any quantity of negative energy requires a greater amount of regular energy to maintain.)

Gmr Leon · Aug 08, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

As for making pocket dimensions... a more accurate physical term would be 'pocket universes', but it's theoretically possible. It does require a LOT of energy, however. (Technically it requires a lot of negative energy, but any quantity of negative energy requires a greater amount of regular energy to maintain.)

Well, actually, I think it depends entirely on your perspective regarding certain theories. If you're into the Many Worlds approach, which suggests tons of universes that exist due to our choices or another way of looking at it would be, due to the existence of chance, as each decision has a chance of you saying yes or no and certain events are entirely dependent on chance in general..It could be possible that the pocket universe already existed, and it needed the right circumstances to manifest, i.e. Glint's child hatching, and both being targets for attack.

AtomicMew · Aug 08, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

@OP: If "magic" actually happened sometime in the past, then it is part of the physical world, and therefore can be studied and is part of science.

If that is the case, then the distinction between between magic and science is entirely redundant.

The only useful definition of "magic" is the fictional, storytelling definition, which says, "magic" is just an excuse to make amazingly cool special effects and better plot lines.